Unknown Speaker 0:01
salary is the drug they give you when they want you to forget about your dreams.

Alessia Citro 0:06
Welcome to the corporate dropout podcast. I'm your host, Alicia Citro. If you're sick of the corporate hamster wheel and looking to feel inspired and empowered to live a high vibe life as your own boss, you're in the right place, dare to drop out in 321. Before we start the show, I want to tell you about the business I'm launching. Do you have a business idea but you don't know where to start? Or maybe you've started your own business, but you know, there are boxes you need to check when it comes to taxes, finance, legal protection, marketing, and more. Same. That's why I founded Theia collective, named for the Greek Goddess of Light Theia was created to light the path for entrepreneurs. We have the community courses and connections that will help every entrepreneur quantum leap and avoid costly mistakes. Learn from experts across professions and get the blueprint you need for your business. Text biz, that's BIZ to 949-577-8709, or head to be a dash collective.com to learn more.

Alessia Citro 1:10
Hello friends. Today I'm interviewing Brie Johnson, career coach, and HR consultant. Bree helps entrepreneurs and small businesses keep humans as the focus while developing their HR strategies and procedures. She also helps moms who are ready to make a change in their careers, gain confidence and build a plan to climb the corporate ladder without the guilts. Yes, we all need that. And Brie is also a founding mentor and Thea collective and will be teaching on human resources. So Brie, thanks for coming on the show. It's a pleasure to have you. Yeah, absolutely.

Brie Johnson 1:42
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Alessia Citro 1:46
So excited to have you. And another amazing connection. Thanks to Instagram, like the gram is where it's at.

Brie Johnson 1:52
It's so nice to be able to connect with people in that space online and get to know them as actual people.

Alessia Citro 1:59
Yes. Oh my gosh, right. Like, and I feel like it always starts out. It's like a slow burn like you're liking each other stuff. And then it's like, we need to hop on a zoom and actually meet

Brie Johnson 2:08
so yes, absolutely.

Alessia Citro 2:10
So I always love to start with how the guests career began. So take us back, like take us through college, what you were doing before you became a corporate dropout, all of that.

Brie Johnson 2:23
So I am one of the rare people that I know who studied communications in college and actually wound up doing that in my job. I had a great opportunity to work with a trade association after college super small company like seven people. And I feel so lucky that I was there because I still refer back to some of the things that I learned from those mentors that I got to work with. And it's also the place where I met my husband. I had him convinced for the first two weeks since I was part of his hiring process, that I was actually his boss. And he likes to tell people that now I am. But it was such a good place to try new things to have the freedom to learn and grow by making mistakes. Because we all are we're going to make mistakes, it's going to happen, you're going to say the wrong thing. You're going to send the wrong person, the email, all of that stuff happens. And I got to learn that firsthand, in a really open environment in a way that yes, it was a mistake. Yes. We didn't want to do it again. But okay, how do we prevent it? How do we not do this? How do we help other people not do this. So lots of event planning lots of public relations marketing for that particular organization. And then was able to build on that corporate communications, in my next role, with a company that I stayed with for about 12 years, by incorporating human resources into all of that. And it's, it's an interesting combination. But as you dig into it, it really starts to make sense. The idea of communicating and thinking of your people, your whether it's your customers, but also your employees, as your audience is so important. And I think by and large companies are getting better at that. But at the time, you know, not to completely age myself. But I'm 40 now and when I was 2728, that was new. That was a different way of thinking about things. And there were all of these assumptions that your employees knew what was going on. Your employees understood. Your employees were always on board and always ready to talk about what was important to the company and being able to sit in human resources and in communications. I had the benefit of seeing everything That was going on in the company, and being able to point out to, again, so grateful for our responsive leadership team to say people don't know, people don't understand they want to, but we need to help them get there. So let's help them get there.

Alessia Citro 5:17
I feel like that's more important now than ever to because, you know, blame the millennials, which I am one on this. But like, if people aren't bought in, if they don't feel aligned to the company, and like they're doing something purposeful, they're gonna dip out and go somewhere else. And that's where I feel like the communication probably becomes extra important. Do you think that that's a, the millennials are playing into that in large part, as well as Gen Z?

Brie Johnson 5:41
I do. And I think it's a good thing. I think it's one of those things where, again, the the president of that company, it was so important to him that everyone be able to come in every day, and say, These are my responsibilities. And this is how I impact the strategic goals of this company. Whether you were involved in contract negotiations, or hiring new people. Or if you were the person who sat at the front desk and greeted guests as they came in for a meeting, you had direct ties and a direct impact on the company's overall success. And I loved that mentality. I loved that approach. And I loved this idea of one of the core values of the company being empowerment. So if you didn't know, you could ask. I mean, it was such a nice culture that everyone's doors were open. So unless the president of the company was on a conference call, his door was open, and you could knock on it and say, Hey, Dave, I want to know more about this. And we were able to incorporate opportunities for each department to present at a staff meeting. So even if I didn't know what Alessi his team was doing, or what their day to day responsibilities were, once or twice a year, I got to hear about their successes and their wins. And I got to be a part of cheering them on. And that felt really good.

Alessia Citro 7:11
Yeah, I love that. And I wish that more companies were doing that, although I think a lot are kind of catching on now. But you know, the other benefit I like that is you get exposed to cross functional teams. And it improves everyone's business acumen as well. So you're not siloed and you know, whatever department that you're in, I love that. So the first time that we met on Zoom, you shared why you became a corporate dropout. And I was so moved by it. And I remember talking to you being like, more people need to hear this story, because I think a lot of women share a lot of what you went through. So if you don't mind, would you share that story on why you left the corporate world?

Brie Johnson 7:47
Absolutely, I would be happy to. So I am the proud mama of three little boys. And my husband and I have gone through a lot with our oldest. He is six and a half now. And his younger brothers are three and two. And Walter, who's our oldest, has a very rare genetic diagnosis and rare as in to the best of our knowledge. There are 350 people on the planet that share this diagnosis. So with that comes so many different doctor's appointments and specialists. And here in Indianapolis, we have some of the best that we could work with. And they work so well as a team. And we are part of that team. But we were when he was little, I think we were every month one or two doctor's appointments each month, and therapy sessions on top of that. So his diagnosis came with a lot of physical and mental developmental delays. So physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, all things that he's still getting. But I found myself in a position where I was out of the office a ton and half days here and there or whole days here and there depending on which specialists we were seeing. And it started to make me feel really guilty. Because I could see on my calendar, like Bree out of office, and I knew that my colleagues were seeing that same thing. And was there I was always worried like, is there this perception that Oh, Bruce, the HR manager, so she's just taking all this time and it's no no, I've I've spent a lot of time with the company. I've built up a pretty solid bank of vacation time and personal time. But looking at that I was like I am not giving 100% anywhere. And my husband knows me so well. And I love that he gets me because he said you are thinking about giving 100% in six different areas. And you're thinking about this as a bar. chart. And I was like, yes, 100%, I want to be 100% here, and 100% here. And he goes, babe, I love you. That's not how math works. You can't think about this as a bar chart, it's a pie, it's pie chart, you have 100% total. So we looked at everything that was going on. And we were able to have a fantastic nanny with us, while Walter was little. And then when Oscar our second little guy came along, and as baby boy, number three, as Arthur prepared to make his debut into the family, it just didn't make sense. We couldn't find a way timewise financially, to continue going the way that we were going. And we looked at our options, we evaluated all kinds of things and said, okay, the boys will benefit, especially Walter being able to go everywhere that he needs to go see every one that he needs to see. But the boys will benefit if I am home. And I start this entrepreneurial journey, because I know myself well enough, that I'm not as good of a mom, a wife, a partner, a friend, if I don't have some things that are mine, that are just for me. So being a corporate dropout has been such a huge benefit for our family, there's no doubt that it was the right choice for us. And it continues to be something that allows me to better connect and better serve the people that I get to work with. Now,

Alessia Citro 11:34
I love the story, because a thank you for sharing it. And I just it resonates so much because I mean, especially after 2020, so many women specifically have left the workforce, because to your point, I love that visual of it's a pie chart, it's not a bar chart, like so many women have had to leave the workforce because they cannot take care of children when they don't have child care and work or take care of a sick parent and work like something has to give. Let me ask you. So as you were planning to do this, what did that exit plan look like? And with this, I want to ask you about benefits if I can, hopefully your husband had some but this is like one of the most common things I hear from people when they list off the reasons why they cannot leave their job.

Brie Johnson 12:22
So benefits for us. We are that rare family where if I look at what is traditionally the out of pocket Max, so thinking about your health insurance coverage, what is the largest amount of money that you could pay during the year before insurance looks at it goes, Wow, we're gonna pay for everything else. Because of Walters diagnosis, we hit that every year. So we know that that's going to happen. And we were extremely fortunate with the timing of things. Arthur's birthday is in August. So we found out at kind of the end of the year, as I was going through on processing and HR, all of the open enrollment paperwork for my company that I was going to be having another baby. And at that point in time, open enrollment end of the year lined up for my company and Andrews company, which doesn't normally happen. And we just moved everybody over to his we moved all the boys over his company had what was called a spousal carve out, so I wasn't eligible to be on his company's health care. So I stayed on my companies. But then when I ultimately left, it became a qualifying event. That's the technical HR term for it. So we were able to very easily get everybody on to his plan. And that was the first kind of thing that my boss knowing us. I worked for at the time, the company that I worked for was a health care consulting firm, and they were actually owned by several of the hospitals right around Indianapolis. And my boss looked and she goes, Are you planning a change with this? Because you just moved all the boys. And I said, Well, insurance company has a new plan. It's really good. And then after the first of the year, I went into her office and I closed the door and I was like you already know that something is going on. And her first thought knowing our family and what we had been through. She was like, Are you close? Okay? I was like, Yes, we are fine. I was like, but I'm having a baby in August. And Andrew and I have already talked about it. I'm not coming back to work after that. So it's January and I basically just gave her like an eight month notice.

Alessia Citro 14:44
Was that terrifying? Yes.

Brie Johnson 14:47
100%. And I said so I want you to know that I want you to be prepared for that. I said but I want to stay until then. And she was like, Oh I'm not kicking you out. That's not happening. It's like, okay, good. So we worked through scheduling, I got to be involved in training my replacement and walking her through everything, making sure that she was comfortable. And by April, I was able to scale back. And I was just going into the office two days a week. So from April until August, when he was born, I just had a part time job. And not every company can do that. So that was amazing to me. But they actually became after, after he was born, and I had launched my business, they were my first client.

Alessia Citro 15:41
That's so cool. I love that the benefits piece, um, which I didn't know this, I never, we never talked questions before the interview. But I love that that became part of the exit plan, because you're forced to tell her. Yeah, I mean, that's the kind of employee that you were right. If you can give an eight month runway and they're good with that.

Brie Johnson 15:59
Yeah. And it was, I also have zero poker face. So for anyone who works with me in the future, if you are part of the collective and you and you get to work with me, I have zero poker face, I wear my emotions, just I have a neon sign projecting what I am thinking. So when she asks me Is something going on? I'm pretty sure I went. No. Like, I asked you a question. Oh, I mean, just, yes, looking to the side cringing into my chair, like, Yeah, I'm sure it was a dead giveaway. And she's like, alright, something is coming, something's happening.

Alessia Citro 16:39
So your answer to segues into the next question I had for you, which is how you built up your business bcj insights. So your former employer becomes your first clients? So tell us how did you build up the clientele after that? Did it take you longer than expected? And also, I mean, you as a brand new mom, baby number three, like you must have had your hands full too. So I'm interested how that played into building a business.

Brie Johnson 17:05
Yes, anyone who has dealt with a newborn understands that the time commitment that you think you will have to devote to this tiny person. And again, I'm grateful that I had done it twice already. So I knew what I was getting myself into. But there's there's no time. There's no time within that first like year to really ramp up and do something brand new. So talking with my, my former employer, we were able to find a handful of projects that were kind of on their wish list, like everybody has those things where it's like, oh, if I only had time, I would revamp this policy. If we only had time we would rewrite our employee handbook. Well, they didn't have time, but I did. So we were able to talk about what are the things that were on that list that we could get started with. And that really helped to boost my confidence. Because the longer the time that you spend away from being actively engaged in your role, your business, your career, that imposter syndrome really starts to creep in. And that will work a number on you. And you're already going through all of this emotional stuff, being a new mom. So that just like compounds it. So having somebody in your corner who can say you're really good at this, you should keep doing this. Thank you for doing this is absolutely huge. So I was able to work through some projects with them. And then I have a good friend of mine. She's actually Arthur's Godfather, or godmother. And she actually looked and she goes, I need to start applying for jobs. And I haven't updated my resume for seven years. And she was like, Can I just email you what I have? And like a list of the things that I wanted to say. And I was like, Yes, do that. That's a good idea. And I was like, Are you using LinkedIn for your job search? And she was like, No, I don't even have a profile. And I was like, Okay, we're gonna get you one. So from that, that sort of snowballed with some other friends. And my first several clients came from either being someone I knew already, or my friend Bethany and Jessica saying, hey, Bri just helped me do this, she can help you too.

Alessia Citro 19:32
And that's where their career coaching comes in. I love that. Probably too, that would enable you to be a bit more agile as a business owner, because those are going to be for short stints. And you can sort of plug and play as you have time because again, the flexibility is paramount. Three kids. Absolutely. Like I'm just impressed that you were even able to do that. Yeah, let me ask you something, too. I wasn't planning on asking this. But I'm curious. You talked about like the imposter syndrome. If you'd been out of the game for a little while. Do you think if it hadn't been for the end employer that you had just left bringing you on as a consultant? Do you think that you would have been able to, like, get this going? Or I'm sure you would have, but would it have been a lot harder,

Brie Johnson 20:09
it would have been a lot harder. And there's a very good chance that instead of stepping into the role as the business owner, the entrepreneur, I would have been working part time for someone else. Yeah, there's a very good chance because that's what I that's what I grew up thinking what happened, you know, you're in my household, especially it was you go to school, you get good grades, you go to college, you get good grades, you get a good job. So the idea of I can own my own business and create this thing was so new and just almost out of left field. And those who know me, I am very risk averse. This is my like, natural inclination is to say, You know what, I'm just gonna try this, just see how this goes. But with my husband's support, and again, him helping me recognize like, you have your MBA, you know what you're doing, you've been a project manager, you understand all of these things, you can technically do this. I was like, Okay, well, let's try it. And then in a year, if it's not where we want it to be, then we'll talk about me going back part time or something. And he was like, okay, okay, like sort of laughing because he knew before I knew that this was be something real, you know,

Alessia Citro 21:36
I just want to underscore something that you said, too, it's almost like, I don't know, you feel like you are a rule breaker or it's like, so mentally challenging to do all the things that you thought you were supposed to do. And then to leave a company, especially if it's a good job and a place you like, like, it's terrifying. But now more and more of us are doing it. And I think like conversations like this help give other people permission to do the same thing and to live a much happier life, right?

Brie Johnson 22:08
Oh, absolutely. And I think it's exactly what you said, it's, you need that permission. And it has to come from yourself first. But I think it helps to have somebody remind you and encourage you that you can do this. And there's so many different ways to do it. It's just figuring out the one that's right for you.

Alessia Citro 22:28
Yes, totally. And I think the internet is just blown the opportunity wide open. I mean, there are an infinite number of ways that you can make money, thanks to being online. So yeah, I love that. I think we're breaking the mold. So let me ask you two, what's been one of the biggest challenges in being a business owner, and anything that you really miss about the corporate world?

Brie Johnson 22:50
Oh, those are such good questions. The thing that I miss is the day to day interaction with other people, specifically other grownups. I have a very like firsthand in depth knowledge of things that are going on in Paw Patrol right now. And as much as I can enjoy that, it's nice to be able to speak to someone who does not necessarily share that knowledge, and be able to have that camaraderie and be able to occasionally curse without the fear of that word being repeated somewhere where it shouldn't be. So those I think, are the things that I miss. And there are definitely ways to to bring that back. You know, it's, it's now that we're able to go more places, again, it's easy to say, Hey, can I meet you for lunch, you know, I'll come close to you if you're back in the office on a particular day, or whatever that might look like. But also, I think, for me, the thing that I've struggled with more than wanting to recreate those connections, is, I have always had a very unrealistic idea of how much I can accomplish in a given day, and how quickly I can get things done. And as an entrepreneur, I have learned to slow down and to be more realistic with myself, but also to give myself grace. There was a day that my parents had come over to help out with the boys so that I could have a couple of meetings and get some things put together. And my mom happened to look at my to do list. And she goes, Oh, honey, you have a busy leak. And I was like that's tomorrow. Like, like, I had to think about that. Because I was like, Okay, if if this woman who has known me for my entire life, knows me in some ways, more honestly than I know myself. If she can look at this and say this will take you an entire week. I need to rethink what I plan to do in a day because I'm going to push myself to burnout and I can't do that.

Alessia Citro 25:02
Hasn't that been one of the biggest struggles as a business owner coming to terms with doing less, and that oftentimes being more advantageous than doing more?

Brie Johnson 25:13
Yep. Because it, it completely goes against, again, my expectations that I had set for myself. And I find myself in a position where, if I'm digging into somebody's resume, and I'm looking over their LinkedIn profile, I can happily admit that I'm a giant nerd. I love doing that. I love that stuff. I love figuring out the right combination of words to highlight your expertise and make you as an individual shine through those two vehicles. And I don't mind staying up late to do that. I don't mind getting, you know, completely lost and letting the laundry sit and the dishes hang out in the sink for a while, like I would much rather be doing those things. But it's, it's kind of forcing myself to remember, you have to take a break. You have to stop. This will be here tomorrow.

Alessia Citro 26:09
And you know, that's the interesting thing about entrepreneurship too. Like I often find myself working much more than I did when I was in the corporate world, even with a very demanding job, but it doesn't feel like work. It's like time doesn't exist, because I'm in the zone of genius. But yeah, to your point, you have to be careful with that or you burn out, you know, everything gets old at some point. Absolutely. So in your opinion, why is keeping the human part of human resources as the focus so important?

Brie Johnson 26:39
That is something that looking back at my career, I have been so fortunate to have been in environments where people weren't allowed to be people, right? We've all heard the saying To err is human. And we do all the time. And one of the things that my boss at my previous company did that I really liked. Every time we interviewed someone, when they got to that final round interview where she would participate, she would always ask, What mistake have you made recently? And how did you deal with it? Because we make mistakes, it happens. And it's really easy. So my experience has always been in small companies. My husband has always worked for large multinational corporations. He actually has an employee number. And when he calls HR to ask them a question, they don't know him by his name, they have to pull up his file using his employee number. So when his company makes a decision about what to do, from a benefits package perspective, what to offer as far as salaries are concerned, how to invest in employees who want to grow and develop professionally. They're looking at it from a numbers perspective. They're using terms like ROI, they're trying to think about, you know, how expensive this will be? Do we have the budget for this? And being in a smaller company? My question has always been, do we have the budget not to do this, because the average cost of turnover for an employee is $20,000. If I can invest 1500 2500, in a program that allows someone to grow their business acumen, develop skills, in business writing, in management in whatever the area is, you know, very technical it base skill, it's well worth it to me to look and say, okay, here is what Alessia needs to be successful in our organization. Let's get it for her. Let's make that happen. And being able to consider f every decision that gets made, how that impacts the person as a whole, and how that impacts what your employees are able to do. When they're not in your office, when they're not logged in at their computers, being able to think about the whole person, and how for so many of us, our work is such a big part of our identity. But there's more to me than just that. And being able to see each team member as that whole person helps you make better decisions in the long run. And one of the things that I got to learn very early on in HR, is that when you make the right decision for the people 99.99999% of the time, it's the right decision.

Alessia Citro 29:47
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. You know, as you were telling that story you took me back to when it was time for me to leave Salesforce. So I loved working there and the only reason I I interviewed at Google was because my role was potentially being phased out. So I was going for internal lateral promotions at Salesforce. And ultimately, why I left because I, again, I loved working there, I would have never ever left had it not that I probably would still be there today and the show wouldn't exist, you'd be listening to something else. But when it came time to decide, they couldn't give me $1, more than I was earning at that point, because it was a lateral move. And they're very good about keeping pay even and all of that. And so they were like, we'd love to keep you but we can't offer you more. And Google was like, almost twice as much on target. So, you know, but then you think about what did it cost to replace me? It's like, if you would have given me another 40 grand. And you know, that was a pretty high level position, another 40 grand, I would have stayed on What did it cost them to fill that. So I think that can be a detriment, sometimes a big business, they have to look at things like keeping it so even very black and white numbers. Whereas you know, that the human piece kind of gets lost?

Brie Johnson 31:04
Yeah, absolutely. And it's something as well that my boss used to say, and when you're when you're in human resources, you have to be involved in the uncomfortable conversations. And occasionally, that conversation ends up with you explaining to someone, you don't work here anymore. Yeah. And she used to say, like, I had the first time I had to have that conversation, I cried in my office afterwards, because I was like, I can't believe I just did this to someone. And she said it was the right decision for us. And for them, we just got there first. She was like, but here's the thing, the minute you can have that conversation, and no matter how confident you are, that it's the right choice for everyone involved. The minute that conversation becomes easy. Get out of HR, stop doing it. Because you you have lost your perspective on what you're doing. And the human beings, the people that you impact with these decisions.

Alessia Citro 32:10
Oh, wow, that is really profound. I have a few friends in HR, I'm going to have to send them. Wow. Okay, I love that. Alright, so final question. If you'll humor us, I feel like human resources sees it all. What has been one of the strangest situations that you've ever had to deal with? If you can tell us on air?

Brie Johnson 32:31
Okay. I've had some good ones. There are a couple. So there was this running joke between myself and one of the other managers that I needed to have a sign in front of my office or like on the door, know how in a manufacturing environment, you'll have a sign that says, you know, it's been X number of days without an employee accident. It's been X number of days without someone crying and breeze office, because people would just come in and close the door and just like vent and tell me things. And then it was like, okay, okay, I can't help you with that. Do you feel better now that you've gotten it off your chest? Yeah, I really do. Awesome. I'm gonna go check some email. But one of my favorite stories to tell happened while I was covering for a colleague who was out on maternity leave, and her role in the organization was to help recruit physicians for the hospitals that owns the company. And I was doing a phone interview. And you know, having very lovely conversation with this potential physician candidate, and I'm looking at his resume, I'm looking at all of the information that he's provided. And I'm finding something in between his some of his medical experience, and it was like, um, what did you do at the zoo. And this person in complete transparency and honesty, said, I've learned so much working with the primates here at such and such Zoo. I can't wait to take this knowledge back into an environment where I'm treating people. And I sat there, like, I asked him my final questions. And I just wanted the phone. I was like, I can't, I can't I I mean, good for him for trying to get get into where he clearly wanted to be. But I was like, I know. And I've told that story and a handful of settings and people are like, you're making this up. You have to be making this up. And it's like, Nope, not at all. These are these are real things.

Alessia Citro 34:47
You know why? That actually doesn't surprise me that much. There was a study that Hewlett Packard did internally you probably know what I'm about to say I've even done a real about this before. They were wondering why women were not moving into me Management at the rates that men were. And so they did a study and they found women will only apply for a position if they meet 100% of the qualifications or requirements and men apply at 60%. Yep, like men are confident. And I think that's a big part of the pay gap. We don't we don't, we can't handle not being good enough or whatever. So we just don't even throw our hat in the ring. Whereas men are like, I don't care. I'm gonna go for it. So ladies, if you're listening, go do the thing that scares you.

Brie Johnson 35:29
Yes. If you're listening, just ask. Just ask. See what happened years now?

Alessia Citro 35:33
Yep. I love it. Wow. Okay. Well, I'm glad that you did not pass on to the hiring. Well, Bree, thank you so much for coming on today. This has been wonderful. And everyone come back tomorrow, she's going to do a mini episode on the inverted pyramid structure for emails that you will definitely want to hear. So in the meantime, Bree, where can listeners find connect and work with you?

Brie Johnson 35:57
I am on Instagram and on Facebook and on LinkedIn, on LinkedIn. Just look for bcj insights. I'm the only employee so I'm really easy to find in that list, and bcj insights on Facebook and on Instagram as well. Well, thank

Alessia Citro 36:12
you so much. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Sounds good. This episode was brought to you by Theia collective the learning community I found it for entrepreneurs text biz, that's BIZ to 949-577-8709 or head to Thea dash collective.com That's THEIA dash collective.com to learn more. Thanks for listening to the show. If you enjoyed today's episode, please help me get the word out about the corporate drop out by screenshotting and sharing this on social I would appreciate it so much if you would subscribe and leave a five star rating and review as well. And I do the show for you and I want to hear from you. So tell me what is it that you want more of text me at 949-541-0951 or slide into the DMS at corporate drop out official or Alesia Citro with two underscores until next time.